Being A Principal, Team Jones, Truck Talks, Modeling Behavior & More with Dr. Christopher Jones

Swell AI Transcript: Dr Chris Jones podcast.m4a
*Ross * Hello. All right, everybody, thank you so much for tuning in to Bear Crawl with Dads. As you know, this podcast is for dads, all about dads, those that are new to the game, those that have been fathering for a long time. And so we just want this show to be an encouragement to whoever's out there listening. So thanks for jumping in and listening to a conversation that we're having. I'm so honored for our next guest. As you know, I hail from the great state of Texas, but we've got our next guest is all the way up from the northeast. And so Dr. Christopher Jones, thanks for jumping on the show with us.

*Dr. Jones * Ross, thank you for having me. I think this is great. And I am a fan of that big state down there. So that's cool that we can make this connection.

*Ross * There you go. There you go. Well, man, I'm so honored to have you. It just we were kind of introduced not too long ago, and I've had a chance to do a little research on you. And I'm excited to introduce the audience to you and what you're doing. And really, most importantly, I'll see the impact that you're making in the young lives of students all across or in Massachusetts, but also to being a father to two young men. And so I'm anxious for the audience to hear your story. Not only what you're doing in the lives of youth, but also to in the lives of your two young men, your boys. So, again, thank you for for jumping on. Fantastic. I love I love talking about it. I'm a gushing father, I always say. So so Dr. Jones or doc, if you will, I'm going to throw a little bit of a curveball. I want to go off script a little bit, but don't get too nervous. I was doing a little bit of a deep dive on you. Yeah. And you I don't know if you know this, but you're probably in the Hall of Fame at one Bridgewater State University.

*Dr. Jones * I'm in the Hall of Fame there. Is that right? I I that's where I went, but I didn't know. I you know, I heard there was a rumor that I was on a banner in the gym, but I didn't know it was for the Hall of Fame. OK, so I'm going to throw some curveball at you. Can you can you tell me who is the most famous other than you? Who's the most famous alumni of Bridgewater State University? Oh, jeez. I'm cheating because I'm looking on the web. Yeah. Yeah. Come on, man. No, I I don't know. The only person that keeps coming to mind is the football coach that was there for years, Maza Farrow, but I don't know. Oh, I don't I don't know of like of another famous name that I ever learned about.

*Ross * OK, well, there's two. But one, you got to know this guy, Jeff Corwin.

*Dr. Jones * Jeff Corwin, that American biologist. Yeah, that was on super familiar Disney Channel going wild. OK, Corwin. Oh, going wild with Jeff Corwin. Yeah, right. Yeah. He was from BSU. Absolutely. Oh, man. You got to know when I was there and it was known as BSC.

*Ross * So you're dating yourself. I am dating myself. Yeah. Anyway, that's just one of the little, yeah, fun, little fun fact about Bridgewater State University for the audience that doesn't know BSU. And the last one, the little old school, Robert Slack.

*Dr. Jones * Now, that doesn't ring a bell at all. OK, he was in the Untouchables back in the day. He was on airplane. Remember the movie Airplane? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I wouldn't be able to point them out, though.

*Ross * OK, well, that's your homework. Since we're in education together, that's my homework for you. Robert Slack is Robert Slack. There you go. So anyway, thanks for playing along, Doc.

*Dr. Jones * I appreciate that. But hey, I I learned something. I just thought I was on a name in a banner.

*Ross * I didn't know I was in the Hall of Fame. Little shout out to Bridgewater right here.

*Dr. Jones * Yeah, there we go. That's awesome. The bears do what? The bears. That's the big ball. That's how it stands up here. The bears are all the bears. Yep.

*Ross * So the bears. OK, so I went to Baylor University and we're the bears. So, yeah, that's right. And the rumor has it we're both bald. So there you go. Bald bears. So, Doc, man, again, so excited to have you. So tell the audience, first of all, where are you from? Where do you live? And what do you what do you currently do for an occupation career?

*Dr. Jones * Sure. I am originally from Oregon. And I now reside in Massachusetts by way of Connecticut. I did. I don't say I grew up in Connecticut. I say I grew older in Connecticut. But now I'm in Massachusetts, probably about 35, 40 minutes southeast of Boston. Northeast of Boston. Yep. OK. And I am currently the principal of a regional high school.

*Ross * Wow. OK, that's incredible. A principal in education right now, I can't even imagine. Keeps me busy. Well, and if people, again, could see you, that your your lack of hair on top is, I wonder how much of that could be maybe because of the stress level that you're experiencing.

*Dr. Jones * I don't know. Maybe. You know, it's funny you say that. It is a stressful job and it has its ebbs and flows. But I talk to different people like that are in different circles or they'll talk to me. And I always tell them it's the toughest job you'll ever love. If if you figure out how to fall in love with it and figure out how to handle yourself as far as stress goes, it's really not that stressful all the time.

*Ross * Well, OK, we have what we're recording this. So we have this we have this on file. So we're going to check back with you in a year from now. And I'm kidding. I'm kidding. You know, and it's funny, and I feel like I get tangent conversations with you because obviously I'm in the world of education as well. But, you know, it's like you don't do this to get words of affirmation or, you know, for people to tell you're doing a great job. But when you do get that, it means the world, you know, because it is so tough, it is so hard, so challenging. I can't even imagine what it is at your level. I mean, I'm a dean of students, you know, in my world. But when you get that one just positive note or something, you're just like,

*Dr. Jones * that's worth it. That's what, you know, 100 percent. And that's one of my strategies. I have a feel good file. Every every note, every card I get, every email gets printed out. And I have a file that's out of alphabetical order in my file drawer that is right in front, and I just open it and throw it in. And now, on one of those tough days, because it is you should never go into be a dean or principal or anything like that, unless you're up for a challenge and something different every day. You know, during those tough days, which there are plenty of those tough days. I'll tell you what, there have been times I've I've ripped open that file cabinet and just pulled out any one of those letters just so that, you know, I'm being told by somebody other than myself on those days that I need somebody besides myself to tell me that. Yeah. That, you know, I'm doing a good job and what I'm doing matters.

*Ross * Well, I appreciate that's a great idea. I feel like I'm maybe that will be on my bucket list for this year to create that file because there's so many times I need something to refer to. But and also to also to make sure before our show is over that I just also to thank you for for your service to our country and your community and how you're giving back effortlessly. So thank you. Because I know it's truly a calling to do what you're doing. So thank you for that. And so, Doc, obviously, as you know, this show, again, I'm leveraging it because I have a two and a half year old son. And so I'm leveraging this podcast to talk to just an excuse to talk to people and dads and take notes. And I'm taking notes from you and just to see, man, where where those wins for you as a father and where those things are like, you know, I could have maybe done that better. Here's some thoughts, because again, like we talked about, if one father or even a spouse can get one word of encouragement from you or for one nugget, then it's it's worth this show. So with that being said, and you alluded to that, you grew up in Oregon. So tell the audience and tell me just a little bit about. But you like, so where did you grow up? What was your relationship since we're kind of focusing on fathers? But obviously, if you want to delve with your mother, too. But what does that look like in your family growing up with your relationship with your your dad?

*Dr. Jones * That is that's a good question and a long answer that I'll try to encapsulate a little bit. My my relationship with my father growing up when I was in Oregon, I was like I said, I was born in Oregon. My relationship was more of. I don't know, like an admiration relationship with my father. I mean, you think about young boys, their father's larger than life typically. And you know that that held for most of my life. There was a split between my mother and father when I was young. Do you know how old you were about six? OK. And so and it wasn't it wasn't necessarily a nice split. And so what ended up happening was my father stayed in Oregon and my mother moved back out to Connecticut to move in with her father because her mother was dying at that time. Wow. OK. From cancer. So she packed the two of us up. And then we moved out there. She ended up moving in with back in with her father. And my grandmother passed maybe a year after we got there, I think. But that that became home so that she could split the bills and make ends meet. And that became home until I left for college. But every summer, like the day after two days after school would get out, we'd be on a plane back out to Oregon. And I'd spend the summer the whole summer with my father until I came back for football camp when I got older. But before that, it was right before school in time to get, you know, like a new pair of jeans and a couple of new T-shirts for school.

*Ross * OK, so you did have that that annual touch point with your father. Yes. Every summer. So real quickly before digging a little bit into that, are you the only do you have any siblings? I do. I have a sister that's two years older than me. OK, so did she go with you to Connecticut as well?

*Dr. Jones * Yes, she did. OK. So and then she traveled back. She traveled back in the summer with me. OK. And the relationship between, you know, once it got past the admiration, because, you know, mom had to play the heavy. I'm you know, I'm a boy growing up doing those boy things. She had to often play the disciplinary. And you know, people talk about the effect divorce has on on kids. And it does, whether it's whether it's realized or not. But the biggest issue. For me was the absentee part, because I also had a father who was not very involved.

*Ross * Even when you were back at Oregon with him for the summer, he wasn't

*Dr. Jones * he he would be, but, you know, he still had to work. So oftentimes I found myself with my grandparents. And so we'd stay the day with our grandparents. Dad would come home at night, but dad would be tired. It's not like it wasn't like yay, rah rah, fun hangout time, especially when we were younger. And and there would be really no contact during the during the course of the year. So he wouldn't he wouldn't reach out to call or anything. And I, you know, I'm younger. So my mother, you know, God bless her for the effort. She would facilitate like, hey, Chris, pick up the phone, call your dad. Here's his number. You know, as I was younger and and as I got older, it didn't really it didn't really clear up all that much more. But I became more cognizant of of what was going on and and and what was wrong about it. And it's, you know, it's funny because whenever I've talked about this with people and that strained relationship, it makes me the father I am today, because the one goal I have with my boys is to actually be a very present, influential father figure for my boys growing up, because I know what it's like not to have one. And so it's kind of like we learn from we learn from our experiences. And I remember my wife and we got engaged. You know, you do the engagement tour type of thing. We. We we went out there to introduce her to my. I want to introduce her to that side of the family. And she was horrified. We were sitting there and we were all talking at one point. And she was horrified when my father didn't know what my birthday was. So or how old I was for that matter. And wow. Yeah. So it was, you know, and it just there were plenty of reasons. He was, you know, and some of that admiration that I had for him is he was a Marine. He served three tours in Vietnam. Wow. And I'm sure I'm sure. And I can think of different examples where looking back on it now, I'm like, well, duh, I'm sure he suffered from PTSD. And, you know, there were talking 70s and 80s and 90s. And, you know, just they weren't banging down the door to help people then. So I'm sure that played a role. But so, you know, I came out to Connecticut and I think I went for a period of probably ten years, I think, because after I remember going out to see him after I got recruited for college. And then after that, I don't think I went out there for ten years and barely talked to him and then. Yeah, something like that. And then, you know, slowly met with him a couple more times. And then came out to Connecticut, did the high school thing, did the college thing and went on my way. But it's it's interesting. Some of the effect anyway, he was a sheet metal guy, welder, and when I go out in the summers, when I got older during high school, I'd go working with him and we'd fix irrigation pipe, which you in Texas may know about, but people that don't know that their pipes that irrigate these large fields, they're pretty large pipes. And they break down. And during harvest time, the farmers don't have time to get them fixed or anything. So they throw them up in piles. Well, then you make money by going around and fixing the piles of irrigation pipe, whether you're cutting them and putting them back together or straightening them out after a bullet tactic or something like that. And I originally went into metal work before going into education. I was a copper smith before I got into education. So it's funny. And I don't I've always played with whether that was an influence or not.

*Ross * Who knows? Can you hear me? Yep. OK, sorry, I must.

*Dr. Jones * I think I actually hit the little button, so we'll cut that out part. Sorry about that. That's right. It was just silence.

*Ross * I just stopped talking and I know it's like how this awkward. I was like, I was kind of interjecting, whatever, and you weren't I was like, oh, my gosh, I don't think you can hear me. So no. Sorry, didn't make you feel awkward there. So with that's interesting that the niche, though, that your father had with the welding with the pipes. And it's interesting, too, because you shared before we hit record that one of your boys know that wasn't, I guess, blacksmith.

*Dr. Jones * Yeah. Well, he it's funny because it's kind of a like interest, but he started it. And so he was interested in trying it. And it was during Covid. He was 12 or 12 or just turned 13. I can't remember which I think it was at any rate. It's 12, I think, because it was during Covid. And so I looked around for these blacksmiths because he wanted to try blacksmithing. And this blacksmith did what blacksmiths do for people that don't know they used to be the most valuable person in the village because they could take problems, solve them and create things to help people better in their lives. So he created forges to go. He built his own portable coal forges. So we had for a birthday present, we had him come out and teach my boys some blacksmithing. That's special. That's neat. So and from there it took off. So now he takes lessons and everything. But and I bang around with him a little bit. But there's always that I miss that from doing the copper work that I did and so forth.

*Ross * Well, Chris, and I appreciate you or Doc appreciate you sharing being so vulnerable about with the connection with your father. You know, and I know there's, you know, obviously in our community, just absent fathers, you know, out there. But was there any kind of? Well, number one, did you when did you reconnect with him? And is he still with us? Is he still alive? No, he's not. He passed. OK, OK. Did was there even though I know you went every summer and then he said he really was he was busy working. But was there any kind of when you look back, advice that your dad gave you or something that you learned, you know, from your father and I don't put words in your mouth. I think we it's almost like when I say that there's bad bosses, there's good bosses. Right. You can learn from anything in anybody. You know, I'm going to learn what not to do. You know, I'm going to learn how to treat people nicely as opposed to this. Right. But is there anything that you gleaned from your father?

*Dr. Jones * Yeah. And it's funny that you said that because I did the same thing when I was observing and student teaching for education. I and just different leaders that I've been under for some reason. And I and who knows, maybe there's a connection, maybe maybe you touch on something bigger, but I I learned how I didn't want to be as a father. And I learned certain things that, man, you you just should have done that. You know. And some of the other things like I remember him distinctly one time saying that if you take care of the simple problems, the hard problems work themselves out. And when I heard that, I was 16, I think, when I heard that. And, man, that was gold. That was like the best advice I ever heard until I realized that it isn't. No, it's I'm not a person. It's funny because my current superintendent says I'm always getting into good trouble. I'm a I'm a ruckus maker in education. I go after the bigger problems. I like the challenges and I go after things that need to be addressed, not because they're easy or I can win them, but because they need to be addressed. And so I I did a lot of opposites that that he did. That's that's kind of what I gleaned. And I I did. I did have you know, I did get back in touch with him. And I think I'd mentioned this before, we were talking before I hit record. When my wife and I got engaged, we went out. We went out to Oregon because I wanted to I wanted to introduce her to everybody. So and one of those things was my father. Well, I I also planned along those trips just to kind of kind of, you know, lay everything out with my father and say, look, this is, you know, it's unfortunate that we've had this relationship and so forth. And so I did that. And it was funny because it took a couple of times explaining me before he was willing to to hear. And after that, we we stayed in touch somewhat, but never like before and then or never to the extent when I was younger. So it wasn't as bad as it had been, but it was a little better. And then after that, he came out to the East Coast for my wedding. And I gave him a tour of historic Boston because that's what that's the stuff he's interested in. And, you know, we left with the idea of, hey, well, you know, we'll stay in touch and everything, which didn't really work. And. It really. The only time we increased conversation is he was diagnosed with multiple myeloma, which is the only incurable blood cancer. And it's not a matter of and it's amazing when you hear it, how many people actually have multiple myeloma. But it goes in a remission. It just never goes away. And so eventually that's what happens. So I ended up my sister and I went out to visit him after I got the call to tell me that he had that. And it was interesting. And this is this is something we can touch on if you if you feel like it after. But he called me and he said he had to ask me a serious question. And I asked, you know, I sure what what's the question? And he asked me if I would forgive him for the type of father he was. Oh, wow. And so I I I told him, I said, well, I if I didn't already forgive you, why would I hold on to that if I didn't already forgive you? I wouldn't even be on the phone with you. But, you know, it when you get when you're faced with something like that, well, when you're faced with life, you tend to get really reflective on where you've been and what you've done. And I've always admired he's he's always been a strong guy and a hard worker. So I've always liked that. And that had to take a lot of strength for him, I think, to talk to his son on the phone. Be vulnerable. Yeah. Be vulnerable and ask him to forgive him. And he and my sister got the same call. And we went out to visit him. And the striking thing about that is because he continued to decline. We went out to visit him and we'd been out there for like three or four days. And we were in the car in the driveway getting ready to leave. And he hadn't gotten out of bed to say goodbye to us or anything like that. We just walked in and said goodbye to him. And then my stepmother came running out of the house and we ended up having to rush him to the hospital. He just medically he crashed and he had to go get emergency surgery and everything. But something that really hit home for me is when that made me think, you know, we're all at one point, we're all vulnerable. We all have our our times. But it really struck me because going from being enamored with this strong Marine as a child, the fractured relationship we have, I ended up basket carrying him to the pickup and having to put him in the pickup from his bed because I was the only one that could pick him up. And. He he didn't pass then. He but that opened up a conversation with he and I where I could be straightforward with him and honest with him about stem cells and transplants and things like that, which he did, gained him more time. But, you know, eventually he succumbed to it.

*Ross * Well, thank you for sharing that. And I got goosebumps when you share the ecology to ask for forgiveness. You know, just as humans and just the power of forgiveness and for your for now that I'm a father, you know, it's just hearing that I wonder inside the battles that he was fighting inside and get to a place where I'll see given this horrible diagnosis. To say, hey, before I pass, I want to make sure that we have peace, you know? So I think that's huge. That's huge. So thanks for sharing. That's really powerful. Because I was going to say, I was actually going to ask if there had been some kind of a reconciliation with you two because you do you look at your father when you're young as that's your hero. That's that's that's my foundation, you know, and then as we get older, right? Or, oh, we see them as humans. We see them as infallible. They they make mistakes, too. They were doing the best they can or could, you know, and I don't know. I can't speak for your dad because of his military background and three tours in Vietnam and the horrible things. Maybe that he saw and to come back home and how that much I didn't get necessarily give him an owl. But those are probably some legitimate things, you know, and maybe that time to that dads, we work hard. We we show our love by providing, you know, you have a roof over your head. You have food to eat. That's how that's my act of love, right?

*Dr. Jones * Sometimes we don't. And I didn't I didn't realize this, but so I was born in 71. You know, we talk about dating ourselves and he had served early tours in Vietnam. And I remember it was geez, it had to be. Maybe 1980, 1981, and I remember fishing on a lake with him. My sister was in the boat, too, and I was rowing the boat. And so, you know, I'm like 10 trying to row this boat across this lake, and I am not doing a very good job. And so he got mad and he was like, here, I'll show you how to do this. So he grabbed the oars and he really started pulling, you know, and the boats jerking forward and he's just going faster and faster. Show me how to row. And I said to him, geez, you know, it's not like we're running in Vietnam like we did. Not in, right? Not. Not having that timeline as a kid that, well, we're five years out, buddy. You know, which then he stopped and I mean, he didn't do anything bad to me. He just yelled, but he said, you know, he stopped and he said, hey, we didn't run. We don't run and all this. But we never realize as we go through time, the generations and how those generations are brought up to believe what showing love is. And so there's the difficulty or therein lies the difficulty of actually communicating real feelings between people, because you can try and communicate your feelings, but that doesn't necessarily mean that somebody receives them. Because of the way you're communicating or the way they the way they understand them. So it's always important that we keep in mind the big picture and what other people what what may be affecting other people as they go through life, which was why the the forgiveness thing was important. And I I couldn't imagine. Being in a position where I needed to ask my kids if they would forgive me. Now, I've apologized to my kid and say, hey, that's not the way you act, as a as a as a young man. There are certain things you need to know as far as how you act and how you carry yourself. And Dad didn't reach that bar for you. So I'm sorry for that. I've done that. But for man to have to ask for forgiveness,

*Ross * I can't imagine what was going through his mind. Well, it also for anybody out there, I think. In your in your shoes and to give you some props, the fact that you put maybe some hurt in your life for some wounds in your life, the fact that you actually stepped up and you initiated that conversation with your dad. And, you know, I'm a I'm a spiritual person. That's my faith is very important to me. But you never know on this side of heaven what the words that you said, what that did to him. You know, you may never know that. But but the fact that did something, the fact that he called you to ask for forgiveness, but you took the first move. You made the initiative, which I think is huge. And that speaks volumes about you and your character. So I think that's really cool, too. And I get for anybody out there to, you know, to say, get over your pride, get over your hurts to some degree. Right. And and offer that that first step, which you did. And so that's huge to show grace. And I think another thing that you touched on, too, is I think, I don't know what you do with your students, but I'll see at the elementary students. One of our key tenets is empathy, you know, and really trying to teach empathy and show empathy and just, OK, I see your point of view and I don't know where you're coming from. I don't know your background. But, you know, sometimes our kids come at carpool. We don't know what happened in the home. We don't know, you know, it's so well, they're coming in hot. Well, maybe there's something that happened at home to show be a little bit more empathetic. So I guess maybe that's a little bit of a takeaway that I was hearing, too, from you was maybe with your father. I know with my parents is to show that empathy, too, to like, I don't know what it was like when you have to provide for three kids. And, you know, I'm trying to put yourself in shoes now that I'm that I'm a father, too, distresses. You're right.

*Dr. Jones * Anyway, that's my ramblings. Well, no, it's not rambling. It's it's right on point because because I don't know if you got one, but I must have lost the instruction manual that they gave me when I had kids. Right. I didn't come with one. So, you know, I you never know. You're just trying to do the best you can. And I mean, that should be the goal for every parent to give your kid a better life than you had and to make it better by instilling some of those core values that you hold dear so that they can then in turn grow into respectable individuals. Right. Society. And there's there's no rule book to that. And there there are some there are some gray situations where you know, you do something and you think, man, am I doing the right thing?

*Ross * No, I know. I know because I have such a headstrong little boy. You know, it's like I want that independence in him. I want that. But then when he like, no, I was like, oh, you know, I'm like, what do I do in the moment? You know, that's what I look that's probably to you, dog. Like, what do I do? You know, but yeah. Oh, my gosh. Well, and I do want to jump in a little bit down the road here in our conversation about education, what you're seeing and just youth and but how about maybe does weave in fathers and families and stuff at the core of the issues, maybe in our society, our students. But so pivoting a little bit from your father, we're going to kind of put the spotlight on you. Oh, boy. As a father. You know, we alluded to this maybe a little bit earlier, but your father of two two boys. Of course, that's a whole nother raising boys in our culture today. But oh, yeah, that's a whole nother probably podcast.

*Dr. Jones * I was going to say careful on the subject. You crack open there.

*Ross * I know, I know. Let's yeah, let's really get some attention. But what has been your and I think you said they're a little bit in their teens. But so far, what's been the greatest challenge for you as a father?

*Dr. Jones * Oh, boy. It could be macro, whatever. But yeah, you know, it's. And you kind of touched on it. And I'm not just parroting you, but walking that line between independence, finding their own way and the current political atmosphere. Where there's a there's a concern over them doing that. And I teach them to be tolerant of people and to not even not even be tolerant. I don't really care for the word tolerance because it's like I'm putting up with it. But to be accepting of people as individuals, anybody that takes anybody as a whole or a group is not firing on all cylinders. But to respect people for who they are, understand that people have their different journeys, but do that by not giving up who they are and their own journey that they're on and what they believe in. So they need to do that for others, but they can't let people infringe on that for them, because not everybody believes that same way.

*Ross * So and I'm because I really want to know as raising a young man, how do you how do you instill that with your boys? Like, how do you as doc, as a father, instill with your two boys a sense of even at their age, but like a sense of. Self-awareness or not cocky, but a sense of self like. Confidence and who they are. But yet, yeah, empathetic or whatever. But how do you instill? How do you instill that in them?

*Dr. Jones * It's it's talking, modeling, explaining. And the reason I say to I say there's a difference between talking and explaining because I tell them and then I show them every chance I get or I'm there to. It's weird how it's tied to education or they're there to give feedback on every situation that they have. And you said you said you give them feedback. Yep. So I let them do their thing because they're going to make mistakes. And that means that there are going to be times where they're not empathetic enough to where I need to be there and say, well, have you considered this? If you thought about this, what does that make you think? To point out different situations, if they're dealing with somebody that's upset them or if they deal with somebody that that it's not treating them right or treating people that they like right. I teach them that they need to stand up for each other. And that was very early. That grew from I taught them to stand up for each other. And that grew into you stand up for people who you are friends with and who are close to you. You don't let other people infringe on what they believe or give them a hard time for what they believe. Everybody can believe what they want, as long as it doesn't do them any harm or stop them from doing that. So I'll talk about that with them. And I love our truck talks. We have truck talks. I can explain that to you later if you want. Well, we have truck talks. And then I make sure that if I'm going to tell them to do something, I need to model it. So if I model something that sticks out to me that says, hey, you know, I hope they do this sometime or this is a moment that I know they're watching me and I behave in this way. Somebody's car is broken down. I don't know. I just pull over to check to see if they're all right. And then I explain to the kids, hey, that person's going to be nervous because I'm pulling over. But I did you notice I called them from the truck before I got anywhere near them and said, hey, can I help you out with anything? And then I explained to him why I did that. So I make sure I model. That's good. And that's that that pullover example is just a just an example. And then I'm with them for different things. My oldest, he's looking he looked at a truck this weekend because he's going to be driving. Good Lord. Um, and so we went for a ride and I said, OK, so here's the thing, buddy. I said, you need to you need to do your thing. I said, but I want you to think of something. I, you know, this is somebody looking to sell you a truck. You can only afford so much. So I don't want you going gaga over the truck or saying it's terrible and you don't want it. I said, just be straight faced, be polite, be respectful. And we'll ask some questions. And then I model that with them. And then, you know, I say then we can talk afterwards. So I try to teach them also about this idea of your feelings, your emotions, being able to control them to a point so that if you are in the future, upset about something, you don't blow up in a time that it's inappropriate. If you're sad about something, that's perfectly fine to be sad. Like you hear about people saying, boys, don't cry. That's still out there. I'm like, it's perfectly acceptable to cry if it's something worth crying about. And then we have a discussion about, well, what's worth crying about to you? So it's a lot of that talking, modeling and then giving feedback.

*Ross * Well, I like it sounds like they're that age where you really can't have those conversations versus obviously a two and a half year old. It right. It's just your your your role as a parent changes over time. Right. So eventually when they're older, you're more of a counselor, mentor or whatever. But but I love the fact sounds like you all are really able to have some conversations and process. And how does that work out for you? So you chose to do this. Yeah. So what could you do different next time or whatever? So that's really great to hear. And I do want to hear about your truck talks. And I think the key thing is I was going to bring that up. I think the biggest thing, too, is is practicing what you preach, you know, because kids are so I don't think we give them enough credit. They're so perceptive. And I feel like they can smell out. Well, not only weakness. When I worked at a middle school, like, they can pick up on weakness. But also, too, they're so intuitive and they can tell if you don't really have their interest at heart, they can call you out on that. But I think if you're not modeling what you're preaching, you just I think this is a life, you know, being a hypocrite. Right. So I love the fact that you are modeling that. You know, I want I want my boy to be able to cut the grass, you know, as far as have a to to work. Right. Well, soon, you know, my wife and I are talking because when we bought our house, we kind of they already had some long people who are taking kind of take care of the neighborhood, the yards. Right. But I'm like, eventually that we're ending that because I need to cut the grass. Hey, because I grew up cutting the grass. But I need a model for my son. Cutting the grass and, you know, and my dad, every time he would get pulled out a lot, but when you get pulled over by the cops because he was speeding, he would always like fake it, be like, thank you, sir. Thank you. I was in the wrong. Thank you for pulling in. But later he would tell me adult, he's like, he was so mad, but he was showing to me is respecting and that he was in the wrong to take responsibility, you know. But he was also too good at modeling and how I could see my dad loving people for who they were, didn't matter their skin color, didn't matter where they were from. My dad and my mom were just incredible examples and are incredible examples of loving people for who they are and where they are. And so that's really made a big difference in my life

*Dr. Jones * of just accepting people for who they are and where they are. Absolutely. I appreciate it. You know, sorry, go ahead. I didn't mean to jump on you. No, no, no. You know, it's it's when you're talking about that and you say with a two and a half year old, I remember. I remember when my boys were young and when they would do something, I wouldn't just yell no at them. I wouldn't just say because and I got comments from some other parents at like family gatherings and things like that. I would sit and talk to them and explain why they don't do something. And of course, they're two and a half. They're looking away, stuff like that. And I would I would make them face me and I would explain to them why they don't do something when I needed to. And people would say, oh, they don't understand, you know, they're not understanding the explanation. You just need to tell them. Well, I found that it's much easier to do now. And I would use a ton of positive praise because kids want to please their parents. They want to please people from a young age. And so all I had to do was if I saw the older one say thank you for something, because that's a must in our house, the please and the thank you. We have a couple of non-negotiables in our house. If I saw him say please or thank you, I would stop everything. And I'd say, wow, Tommy, that's fantastic. That's those are some good manners right there, Tommy. I'm really glad to hear you saying that. And boy, that is just excellent. Next thing I know, Scott is tripping over himself to find something to say please or thank you about. And it just, that's the way it works. If you praise somebody publicly, specifically for the behavior you're looking for. Other people know that. And that trips the idea that they want that praise deep down. They could say whatever they want, but they like that praise deep down. And so they're going to do something. And boy, when they do it, I make sure I call it out and they get that. And it reinforces it.

*Ross * That's so good. That's so good. Yeah. Cause I, that's one thing too, that my wife and I talked about too, with before our son was born and that we just have to model if we're, if we're wanting to thank yous and please that we needed to model it as a couple, you know? And so sometimes we go a little over the board because we're just trying to set an example for him, but I'll be like, thank you, Meredith for passing. That was, I really appreciate that. You know, and we'll catch, you know, our son kind of going like, thank you and you're welcome. You know? And so I love that. Um, yeah. So I think it's just Molly, cause the kids are watching everything that you do.

*Dr. Jones * Um, absolutely. You know, and they, my youngest son, um, he does it the most because he sits on that side of the car. He opens the door for my wife. Oh, that's huge. If he gets to the car before me, he opens and closes the door for her to get in. Wow. He sees me do that. Um, that's a gentleman that right. And that, that positive, that positive reinforcement, because she definitely is all over. Oh, thank you very much. You know? Um, but that, that positive reinforcement, that modeling and, and one of the biggest things is trust and, uh, trust and honesty, because one of the things that I remember now, my truck talks, we do coffee runs together, which is to Dunkin donuts. Yeah.

*Ross * So tell me about that. Cause I, one of my questions and let's jump into it now. And maybe this is it, but I was going to say, what are some traditions? What are some things that, um, that you do as a father with either both of your boys or individually with your boys to create connections?

*Dr. Jones * We both do truck talks, um, which is I get them and I take them for a ride. Now a five minute ride to Dunkin donuts, because anybody not from Massachusetts just doesn't understand until they come to Massachusetts that they're legit is a Dunkin donuts every half mile. Um, and so we'll go to get a cup of coffee and we won't come back for 20 minutes because what we'll do is we'll drive around because now I've got them. They're in the truck, they're captive audience and we can dive deep on things that have been going on recently. That can go anywhere from movies that they're interested in seeing to a book that they're interested in reading to something they want to do later in the week, but I absolutely love them because it also does lower if it's, if it's got to be a more serious talk, it does lower the defenses because they don't even have to look at me eye to eye because you can look both look forward at the road. And so they feel that much more comfortable. And one of the rules about that is that we always are honest. I've told them from as early as I can remember that I don't care what they've done or what's going on. They need to be honest with me. And I in turn will be honest with them about everything. And I just find that they, they tell me things that, man, I'm, I'm shaking my head sometimes saying, why aren't you telling your friends this? But they just, that, that honesty piece, um, really sends it home. We say prayers together every night. And one of the things we say when I, we alternate in different areas of the prayer that we say, we say some of it together. They say some alone. I say some alone. Then we say some together. And, um, one of the things that we always say is I, I pray that we have that special relationship found only between a father and his sons based on love, trust, respect and honor. And we really work to fulfill that. And I didn't realize, and you'd said this before, you don't realize how much of an impact your words have. I didn't realize how much of an impact that was having until this past father's day, it was father's day or my birthday. They're close together. So, um, my youngest gave me a gift. He had forged a bookmark for me. And, um, he made this bookmark with a leather tab hanging out of it. And in the back, he inscribed the Viking ruins for love, trust, respect and honor because that stayed with him. Wow. And another part that made me realize how powerful it is to always be honest. My oldest asked, we were having a truck talk. My oldest was, um, asked me for some feedback, um, on some stuff that he was thinking and some of the things that he thought. And so I listened to him and I told him what I thought. It was quiet in the truck for a little bit. And, uh, I looked at him. I go, so, so what are you thinking right now, buddy? Where, you know, where are you at with what I said? And they looked at me and goes, well, dad, you're honest. So, um, and then, you know, it opened it up where we could talk about it more. And sometimes that honesty people will look at and think is harsh and it's not meant to be harsh, um, just the same as with discipline. Um, discipline isn't something that you do to somebody. It's something that you do for somebody because it's through discipline that we become successful in life and we refine ourselves into who we really want to be. Um, so those are all, those are all important things. I'm, I don't want to ramble on you or anything. I just want to answer your question.

*Ross * Hey, rambling is what is that? That's what it's all about. That's where the nuggets live. Right. So, and you're like my, my, my synaptic or whatever, or just popping off, like, as you mentioned, so many things, you know, that, uh, I love the intentionality with the truck rides, um, that's beautiful. And, you know, for fathers out there, for families out there or single moms or whatever you may be to, to be intentional about those one-on-one times. And I know listeners to the show, I know my wife, like you mentioned it again. Um, but my dad was very intentional about having date nights with, um, myself or, uh, my two sisters, you know, so it was like Ross tonight's your night, wherever you want to go, whatever you want to do, let's do it, you know? So it was like, man, I got my dad's on, on, I got his focus, you know? And, um, that was huge. You know, my dad would open up the doors for my, my sisters and he would pull the chair back to, to, to show them how to be treated like a woman and don't, don't accept anything less, you know, when you go out on dates, right. And so he was modeling what it was to treat a, to treat a woman. Um, so I love that cause it's key. And I don't know what it is like for you growing up as obviously as a, as a boy. Um, but your two boys, because I feel like too, I've said this, you know, how we are species boys, how we open up and share is by doing something, not sitting around going, all right, how's your feelings, you know, what's, how was your day, you know, fine, good, fine, fine. You know, but it's like through the act of throwing a football through fishing side by side, you know, with your son, you're doing something. But then through that, you're kind of leveraging your trick in the system, if you will, to open up, because I feel like I opened up so much more when I wasn't sitting there being, you know, questioned, right. Do you, do you find that with your, with your son sounds like,

*Dr. Jones * Absolutely. It's, it's gotta be activity-based. Like you like taking a ride in a truck, fishing. It's funny. Yeah. We're going deep sea fishing this Saturday. We usually go. And it's a funny story. We usually go fishing every other, every week during the summer with my father-in-law. Um, the four of us go, but we're in an 18 foot Dory. Um, and right now the four of us are a little big for it. We think we're going to get wet if we go out in it. So we just haven't done that this year, but it's through fishing, we're talking about things. My father-in-law has learned more about his two grandsons, um, doing that fishing, um, but we, we do that. I do it while my son's smithing in the backyard. I'm just walking around, maybe saying something for them, maybe taking a couple of swings, but, um, I do that with my son. Why he's talking to me about different engineering things, because he's starting to be an engineer. Cool. Um, so it's, it's those, those individual times, like you said, that's around an activity. Yeah. You know, if I'm going to sit at a table and talk, I, I think I'm spent and, and

*Ross * quite honestly, um, I don't think teenage boys are going to sit there for that either. No. The fact that we're, you know, sitting, having a conversation and I'm still sitting in a chair is crazy to me. Um, but, but yeah, I think that's, I think, I don't know. I think generally, you're right guys, we've got to be doing something together where we pop off and we talk. And I'll never, so my former school, uh, when I was the Dean there, my art teacher, she was, if I'm going to out her right now, okay, so I outed her, but I would always go to her every day and be like, okay, so what are you hearing? Like, what's the scoop with the kids? Like, what's the pulse? Because when they're in art class, she, she always tells kids, if you say something though, that obviously that's over the line, that I've got to report, but this is a talk about whatever you want. And she would get more, because the kids by doing art, then would just start saying stuff. And so she was always my person that I would go to and get some inside scoop. Absolutely.

*Dr. Jones * Yeah. I, you know, it's funny because I, um, this past year we just grabbed smoke and mad time, both my boys wrestle. And I was rolling around with my older one and just some of the talking that we were doing, why I was showing them some moves and we were drilling and, um, different things like that.

*Ross * Oh, you hear me? Yeah, I got you. Okay. Sorry, sorry. Yeah. So I, you know, I think, um, that is, so, you know, of course the whole wrestling can't wait to come on forward. Let's wrestle. Let's wrestle. I love that. Um, but no, thank you for sharing that as far as, is there any other, while we're kind of a little still on topic with, um, are there any traditions, I'll say rituals, but are there things that you all do as a family or as a, so obviously do the truck drives.

*Dr. Jones * Yeah, we do the truck drives. And now as a family, we have family nights. Um, we have nights during the week where it is family. Now, whether that means we're playing board games, we just got back from this three week trip together, um, which I don't know if you want to call 2,500 miles in the car together, a ritual, but, um, we'll see if we do that next year.

*Ross * As I say, are you all still talking? I, yeah. Did y'all need a detox from each other?

*Dr. Jones * You know, what's funny is we made a joke about that saying, Hey, we're not going to have a family night for a while. And I'll be, you know, the day, two days after we got back, we were like, Hey, let's do something together as a family where the video games get shut off. They go online with their friends. And so we're respectful of that because they need to do things like that. But after that trip, we bought a box of poker chips because we taught them how to play blackjack. And so that's going to be added to our family game night. How fun. But we definitely, that's a life skill. Yeah. And, uh, we do that. We have weekly family dinners. My, my wife comes from, um, uh, a very Italian family that did family dinners each week, we've continued that tradition. So we alternate one week. We're at her parents. The next week we host them. Cool. Okay. Okay. Yeah. So, you know, we have, we have things like that where we need to spend time together, like tonight, um, was one of those nights before I hopped on with you where we said, okay, um, dad is going to be in Plymouth for the rest of the week. He's at a conference. You're not really going to see him unless he videos you at night, which is another thing I do if I have a late night, I make sure I video conference with them before they go to bed. Um, and so they came upstairs and they dropped their friends and said, we're, we're spending time with the family tonight.

*Ross * That's powerful, man. That's really powerful. That's really cool. I know one thing too, that we, we, I grew up where we spitting off a little bit of your family dinner reference, you know, we always ate together as a family. Um, that was just, I couldn't leave the table until everybody's finished. And again, like I said, I think maybe I struggle with ADHD. I don't know, but I can't sit still very long. And so I was always like laying down on chairs, rolling under the table, but you know, but Bobberdale like, okay, that's our non-negotiable. You can't leave until we're all done, you know? And so, so to this day with my family, we all sit together at the dinner table. Of course, technology is all, everything's off, right? And that's, um, just something that's sacred, you know, to us. Um, and one thing too, I want to reference before I get to my next dive with you, um, but I love it also to the fact that if I was going to ask you and you, you, you went there first, but it's creating that, that, um, that honesty, creating that safety, that trust with your boys early in the get-go, um, that having that channel of trust that there's nothing that you can say that will shock me. But I just want to, you know, I think that's powerful to be able to go to your parents and just have that freedom. So it sounds like, um, you've really established that well, especially for boys, I think too is huge. Um, I know I definitely, not that I ever lied to my parents, but definitely some things I may, I was embarrassed to talk about, um, you know, and they're always like, come talk to us about anything, but I think in my own head, I was like, ah, I don't know, I don't know. You know? Um, so I love that you create that for your boys.

*Dr. Jones * You know, and you can, you can do that. And, and one of the ways I found that I do that is you never freak out about anything because when you sit there and they're being honest with you and they take that chance, you don't have many chances where they're going to be honest with you to, to cement that foundation, whether they continue to be honest with you or not. And so you have to step back because ultimately parenting is about tight, loose control. Um, and I, I use the idea that look, when, when my mother was growing up, my mother was born in 44, when she was growing up, you had to go look for trouble. If you want to get into trouble and find trouble. When I was growing up, trouble was out there. Wasn't too hard to find. You could make your decision to get into it or not. But nowadays it's not a matter of if kids are going to be presented with bad decisions, drugs, alcohol, reckless things. It's when, and there's nothing parents can do. Now you, they, your listeners might not like this. Bring it. There's nothing you can do through all your efforts to protect your kids from being exposed to these things. So what you need to focus efforts on is making sure your kids make the right decisions to put themselves in the right places when these opportunities or these situations present themselves. And one of the first ways to do that is by being honest. And so when they're honest, you think about tight loose in the future. You think about big picture and you play chess to their checkers. When they're honest with you, no matter what it is, you praise them for being honest. Thank you so much for telling me on it, being honest, being this. And if it is something that they did wrong, that does deserve a consequence because there's, there's consequences for every action. Some are good, some are bad. You give them the consequence and then you tell them why they didn't get even worse of a consequence. And even if you were not going to give them worse, you give them that consequence and you say, look, but Hey, you were honest and I appreciate that. And you show them that we can work through anything as long as you're honest. And I found my wife and I found that we are so blessed with our two boys that they do make mistakes. And when they do screw up, yeah, we get a little short sometimes, but we look at ourselves and we say, you know, like really big picture, man, we're lucky to have these two boys. Um, so that's, that's that little rambling. That's that's that little tangent.

*Ross * No, that's, that's, that's so great. And what incredible gift that you and your wife are, what a, what amazing tag team, um, I know, you know, my role as Dean of students, even my, my, my previous school, my current school and always tell students, you know, I think the root word of, of discipline is to disciple. It's to, to lead the disciple, to, to mentor, right. And, and there are for every action, there's a reaction and there, there are consequences and I think we as a school, but it means a person, as long as they're logical, you know, we always say at our school, if you draw on the wall, just clean it up, that's, that's it. Just clean it up, fix what's broken. You know, but I think too, I, you know, I would tell my, when I worked at the middle school, uh, before this job, I'd always tell kids, I would rather you be honest. And of course, you know, my role too, as a Dean, I always need to work hard to, to try to meet them where they are, capture their hearts as best as I can. So when they do have those areas where they do make a mistake, they know that I've, that I care for them. They know that I've, I've laughed with them and I've played with them, that I'm not just in there to quote, quote, you know, whip the belt, um, that I've got their heart, right. That's the goal. Um, but is to sit there and say, look, if, if you're honest, the consequences are going to be so much less, but if I do find out that you've lied, you know, then to me, that's a bigger deal, right. And there's going to be some more serious consequences if, if you lied, you know, so that try to set up that way too. So it's good to hear you reinforce that as well with your kids and sounds like communication, openness, openness, and honesty is, is the root of a lot of this too. Um, moving on a little bit, cause I do want to have a little time to hear about education because I'm just, you're right there in the thick of things. And that's, I'm going to know a whole nother block too, but we'll do kind of a macro view of that, but I don't, I don't want to rush through your role as a dad. But what, so lastly, questions really cut it as far as with, with this whole crazy title of, of being a dad or a father. Um, but what would you tell, I guess, what would you tell yourself when your first son was born?

*Dr. Jones * What would you go back and tell yourself then what you know now? Oh, man. That is, that is a good question. I, um, just, just what like singular, or can I like send a book back? Um, there was no way. I still remember when both my boys were born, there was no way I could have prepared for the uncertainty, the pride, the amount of love, um, I would feel. Cause man, when my boys were born, I, I, I cried in the delivery room when both my boys, it was such, you know, it was such an event or a feeling. Um, and I would probably say to myself, if you think this is a powerful feeling, you know, wait a couple of years, I would, I would make sure that I really sent home the idea that it's about playing the long game. It's about helping this individual and supporting them as much as possible with everything they need, because I mean, they're a completely dependent human being and helping them find their own way through their own interests, their own passions, so that they can be themselves, but be themselves with. I don't know if it's the skills or the tool sets or what the right word would be to be a standup man for lack of a better way of putting it in life. Um, and I would tell myself that that was going to be a difficult journey full of times where, um, I have to do something that I don't necessarily feel comfortable doing, but I know that it's, it's best for them in the long run.

*Ross * Um, so it's a whole lot of, you're about ready to put yourself second for a long time and not only be okay with it, but embrace it and love it because time, because what every guest that I've had or people I talk to, because time flies. Yeah. Right. Yep. You blink and boom, they're driving. Yeah.

*Dr. Jones * Yeah. I mean, really looking at a pickup this past week and I'm like, what? Right. He's going to be in college. He told me he goes, dad, I'm going to two years. I'm going to be away in college. Awesome buddy. Thanks. I want to go back to my room and just wail in a pillow. If I'm being honest, because we have honesty here. Yeah. Let's talk honesty.

*Ross * Dad's going to go cry in his room for a little while. So don't judge, but that's me wailing. Not the TV, but I think, you know, it's, it's, you're talking again, too. I think maybe being an older father, because I'm really late in the game to this is that maybe one thing that I've got now is that maybe this is no judgment on friends or guests because it is what it is. But I think so many people have been like, I wish I could go back and I didn't focus so much on my weekend of when I went hunting or I went fishing to do my thing. I wish I would have been more. I mean, active, but more intentional because time flies so quick. And now my kid's off to college. I can't go back and replay that. You know, so I think now I'm like, not that I'm like suffocating my boy, you know, but it's like, I want to be present. The fact that I work in education, I have the summer. I have some summer hours, some days, there's a little bit more freedom. Right. So it's just really being intentional about that time, you know, with him and being present. And I think just gleaning that from some guests and friends that, you know, I have kids now in high school and college, just a little bit of looking back on it. Flies by so quick, you know,

*Dr. Jones * I love the word intentional. And I feel as if I've been as intentional as possible. I left one of my early jobs because it didn't because the length of the commute, I wouldn't see my kids for a day if I had a late night. And so that's not that's not the father I want to be. And that's not fair to my wife. And so I left the job. Good for you. Good for you. So intentional. Yes, I love that word because it does go by in a blink of an eye. And no matter how intentional I've been and I feel like I've been fairly intentional, it's it's still gone. And even with that intentionality, it's it's gone. I remember talking to my assistant principal, his daughter, she's been in college two years, three years, maybe now. He remembers when she started driving and he didn't get to drive her back and forth to practice anymore. And he missed that. That that sent it home for him that, you know, things were things were kind of wrapping up. Yeah, it's just.

*Ross * Well, I've even like I guess it was back in January, we started my little man in swimming in swim class. And so, you know, my wife and I, we would alternate Saturdays because we get to go in the pool with him because, you know, he's so little, right, with his little class. And then when he graduated to the next step up where we didn't have to be in the pool with him anymore, you know, even that I'm like, wait, what? You know, like I like being in the pool with you know, it's even that little thing. I'm like, you know, but now I don't mean I was the last question, maybe as far as with your I don't mean to get too sentimental or too awkward. But if you could go back. Until your dad. Something maybe alluded to that a little bit, but what would you what would you tell your dad if he.

*Dr. Jones * Was here or he's listening now. I would say. Boy, if I could if I could tell him something, well, I kind of told him what I need to tell him when I, you know, forgave him. Right. Sure. But. Yeah, because you see, this is tough for me because you can't go back because immediately, right, it jumps to my mind immediately. Hey, man, just be there. You know, just. Just get involved, just be there, even on the even on the lowest level and be accountable for the decisions you made before too much time goes by that you can't be be responsible for him. Or it doesn't matter if you accept accountability for him. Yeah. I mean, that's I I would have to go with that because clearly that example. Too much time has gone by or had went by for him to really. Be accountable. I mean, he could, but we had lost you figure before that a decade and then maybe another, you know, another seven years. Yeah. About that amount of time.

*Ross * Well, and I ask that question to also to a little bit of intentionality for others. You know, maybe again, if there's a dad out there that's listening to say, man, it's been years or I've made so many mistakes, I feel like to go back. And so even what you just said, may that be a word of encouragement to a dad out there to say, just stop now, you know, call the intentional, you know. So that's yeah.

*Dr. Jones * Not tomorrow, not next week. Just pick up the phone now because it's it's never too late until it is.

*Ross * Yeah, yeah, that's good. Thank you. And that's and that's kind of what I wanted to obviously hear what you have to say to your father, but maybe just encourage that out there. So thank you for that. Now, we'll kind of last. I know this is kind of a macro, but go as high as you want or super focus as you want. But what do you see? And I'll see with what you do as an occupation or a calling, what do you see

*Dr. Jones * are the biggest challenges facing dads today? I see uncertainty of their role and their usefulness in the family unit. I see. I see dads not sure of. What they should be instilling in their children and when I say children, I mean, you know, oftentimes we jump to boys when we talk about dads, but but young ladies too. Yeah, this question is it doesn't have to be focused just on boys. And it's I mean, it's because. Right. If if you're if you're too much, if you're if you're perceived as too strict, well, you're overbearing and you're that that, you know, aggressive male that there's no place for. But then if you're not, you almost become an invisible aspect of the kid's life. Like I it's interesting if I could digress for for an example. You know, I our house is our house and I like I said before, and I was joking, but I mean it, what you see is what you get with me. But there are different ways that I act and carry myself based on where we are now in my house, my wife, lover, she she runs things. So I am there to support, but I am there to make sure that whatever she wants to do or whatever she wants to get done and don't I mean, it's a partnership, but I'm there more as a support and I show the boys that, you know, mom is to be treated very well out. And so that's you catch that in my tone, you catch that my actions, you catch that and what I model. I was at I was in a situation the other day and my wife was standing next to me at a counter that we were at a customer service place that were really just giving us the run around and I had had enough. And so I took that other stance of who I am and what I believe in with that individual behind the counter. And after I finished, we'll say speaking with them and I didn't do it with raising my voice or screaming or anything like that. But after speaking with them, I turned around and looked at my wife who was sitting at the counter next to me and she she was wide eyed and she looked at me and she was like, are you that way all the time? Like at work or if somebody disagrees with you? And and I was like, no, no. But it's. But if it's that fine line that look, there are there are certain ways that I believe in my heart, a man needs to act and a man needs to behave. And it's more on the gentlemanly. And I get this. Now, this is an interesting spin on your podcast. I get this because with the absenteeism of my father, I was raised by my grandfather, my mother's father, who was born in nineteen seven. He had kind of a different perspective on what a dad was supposed to do that. Yeah. And so so that kind of bled into me. So am am I on the conservative side or maybe a little old fashioned with how I view a father figure, supposing to be like I loved I lit up when you said that your father would pull out chairs for your sisters and open doors for them to show them how they need to be treated by men. And unfortunately, I think society has gone away from that. And I've I've been on the receiving end of that. I opened a car door for a girl one time. And now don't get me wrong, I'll hold the door for anybody because it's polite. It's the right thing to do. But I opened a car door for a girl one time and it was a friend of mine's girlfriend. And she looked at me and she said, I'm a strong enough woman to open a door on my own. I was like, for real? You know, and but I think that's manifested itself to a point where if a man is too forward with his core values or carrying out that that older fashion, unfortunately, to say that role, that's seen that he's seen as aggressive and he's seen as bad. But if he's not, he loses his voice. Yeah. So where does he belong? And what does it matter what his values are when he's when he's in the shadows?

*Ross * Where are the battles for us to fight in fight for? Right. You know, to fight for. There was a co-worker who had moved to Houston. And again, it's kind of in my DNA to open up doors like yourself. But I would appreciate it about what her she was like, is this not the stereotype, but she's like, is this a Southern thing? She says, sorry, it's just it's what I do. And but she didn't she she respected it, you know, knowing that culturally, maybe down here. And so she didn't pull out to which I said, just thank you for letting me go. It's just it's a reflex, you know, but but I appreciate her not yet given the whole like I can open up the door, you know. Oh, man. I was. Yeah, I still would have opened it back.

*Dr. Jones * Yeah. It's funny because. So something really interesting happened with my 16 year old a little while back. He plays Dungeons and Dragons. And so and I don't know if you know what that is or. And come on. So he plays that and he got in that he's got a couple of friends that are girls that play and a couple of his buddies that play. So he was going to be the DM one night and he's all jazzed up. So we said, sure, you know, bring them on all over or whatever. So he invited these certain groups of friends and one had always been kind of a little lippy. So what happens was the night didn't go all that well. And this kid that my son has always been friends with and has stuck up for, you know, yes, he's got some issues, this, that, the other. But he he ended up having words with the kid afterwards. And when the kid shot back at him about, well, what about this and this and this? My son broke off the friendship with him. And so I said to him, I said, well, hey, bud, you know, you got to think about what kind of impact that has on him. And did did he did you talk to him about it? And did you talk to him? Why? And he said, well, dad, here's the thing. He said he made my female guests uncomfortable with some of his comments. I told him about that and some of the comments continued. So I said, he said I stopped the game, which he did. And then they went outside and hung outside until the end of the night. And he said, then when I I called him out for it, when I was talking to him, he didn't take accountability for it. And he denied it and tried to blame other people. And he said, I'm just not going to have that, dad. He's not going to make girls that I'm friends with feel uncomfortable when they're at a party at my house. They need to be respected when they come to my house and feel like it's safe in our house. Mike drop as a dad. Right. I was like. OK. And he said, so I'm all set with him. I. OK. And good. And I thought to myself, you know, the reason I say that is because. We need more adults doing that. Can I say that out loud on the podcast? But we have more adults saying that and doing that, and specifically adult males saying that. But that's not cool. That's not in to say, hey, you made that female feel uncomfortable. You're not supposed to do that. That's not saying the female's weak. That's not saying any of that stuff without getting into that. But you don't do that. And if you don't accept responsibility or accountability for it, then you need to be talked to. Right. Right. And in a serious way.

*Ross * Well, how do you how do you move from a role of passivity to a role of pro pro in proactive? Ian, you know, no, that's a great story. What a what a testimony to your son. That's awesome. That's awesome. You know, I've always told, you know, people, I don't know if I'm going to be in trouble since I'm a dean at a school, but whatever. Yeah, whatever. But it's like, you know, and I can tell I told my students, you know, I remember there's one story where I just started my dean role and there was a basketball. They're taking their back into the basketball pictures. And one of the boys kept on getting the pants right before they were hitting the click and to take a picture. And the boy who was kind of meek would tell the other boy, like, hey, stop. And then he got the pants another time. And the boy was like, stop. And he depends them again. And then finally, after the third time, Michael just went pop, pop, pop, pop them in the face, punched them, you know. And so, of course, the parent I have to walk in the parking lot and the parent of the boy that got hit in the mom, they were just I said, well, sounds like you backed a snake in the corner and you got bit, you know, and when I found out the side of the story, my consequence for the boy that actually hit was less. And the boy that was agitating and initiating got more of a severe penalty because, you know, the boy used his words. He uses words that I told the dad of the one I hit. I said, I'm really proud of your son for using his words. But then he finally stood up because nobody else is doing anything about it. The adults there weren't doing anything about it. And so it's almost like I would tell my boy, like, there's got to be a point. And your thoughts on this and not to go down some rabbit hole. But like, if you know the consequences and you follow the rule, like you use your words, you told the teachers, you've gone down the list of the things you're supposed to do. But if things are still not getting taken care of and you're OK with the consequences, do what you got to do. You got to, you know, you got to own it.

*Dr. Jones * But I'll support you 100 percent. I've always told my boys growing up, I've said, look, there's never there's never a reason somebody should be allowed to put their hands on you in a fashion that you don't want. And if you've told them to not do that and they continue to do that, then I fully expect you to do what you need to do to protect yourself and to keep them from putting their hands on you in a way that you don't want them to put your hands on you. And there is a consequence for that, because that's what they that's the first thing they shoot back. They will get in trouble. I said there is a consequence for that. Yeah.

*Ross * But we can work on that after. Totally. Well, and you alluded to this with your son and the friend that was saying inappropriate things that the boy never took ownership. The boy never acknowledged it, you know, and maybe if he did. So, you know what? You're right. I was trying to get attention. I don't know how to act with girls or how to crush. And I said stupid things. I apologize. Then maybe your boy would. All right. We can work with that. And so, you know, but be as men, take ownership, take responsibility for your actions. And if you're OK with whatever that is, I got you. As long as you know, you're OK with it. But anyway, so. You know, Doc, as we delve a little bit also to now want to dip a little bit to the world of education. But, you know, I do want people before we tap out, if that's a wrestling term, but before we tap out. But I do want the audience to know where they can find you. I know also, too, I know you've written a book. I want you to be able to promote that book. All your social media links will be in the show notes. The link to your book will be in the show, not show notes where so people can find you. I know you're right. You're very active on social media, Twitter, and you have a blog and you have a podcast. And I want people to be able to find you. And one thing that with your book, seeing to lead, support, engage and empower. And it sounds like your focus is to really. Like you said, you're an agitator in the world of education. But in that education world, kind of give us your your elevator speech, whether it's about the book or your mission out there in the world of education.

*Dr. Jones * Sure. Well, my my just cause, I call it is to improve the educational system for everyone involved by being purposeful, acting with integrity and building character. OK. And that's that that's the elevator speech. That's I I put out weekly videos to my community. OK, I try to keep around four minutes. Where can they find that? They can find that on YouTube, on my YouTube channel. OK. But I put those out and I just talk about different aspects of purpose, integrity, character. I give little tips, tricks here and there. I I sometimes put out challenges for for people to try for themselves to see how things work. But goal setting, stuff like that. OK.

*Ross * Go ahead. No, no, no, no. What as far as like with your book and with what you do on a day to day basis, how does that play out in real life for you? I'm not sure I know what you mean. Well, but as far as I know, like on your your website, for example, is it creating a true education, educational experience? We're learning growth and leadership, right? Community takes center stage. What does that look like? How do you what what infrastructure? Do you have to set up what environments are you setting up in your school? Are you there to really support the teachers? Is it the students as well? I guess your your ecosystem?

*Dr. Jones * Does that make sense? Perfect sense. I got you now. I got about a sentence ago. I was going to say, all right, I got you. Um, no, I'm I'm a teacher centered principal. And sometimes that makes people step back and say, how can you even say that? You're supposed to be all about students. Well, I am. But I'm searching for the biggest domino. I can knock over to knock over all the other dominoes. And if I support, engage and empower teachers and I focus on the teachers by creating that environment for them, then they they stay in their passion for teaching. There they like coming to work. They enjoy their job. They lean back into their why for even getting into education. And there's no way that students don't benefit. And teachers that see 120 students a day see more students more often than I'm able to, no matter what system I have in place. So I stay very visible in the school. I'm in the classrooms all the time. I'm giving feedback all the time. I encourage teachers to take risks, to do things different. And I empower them so that they don't need to come and ask me for permission all the time. I'd rather them come and say, hey, Doc, I did this. What do you think of this? And I'll say, OK, well, yes. And or did you think of that? And then we'll move forward from there. I don't want them coming to me and saying, hey, do you think I could change this lesson just a little bit? No, they're not. They're not to be kept in a box. And that's no way that education is going to improve itself. I want them to make their own decisions, feel as if they can make their own decisions, feel if they can take their own risks, fail. And then because they're the professionals,

*Ross * turn it around and learn from it and then improve it for the next time around. That's awesome. That's awesome. So with with being that you're kind of in the weeds, you're right there on the front lines. I guess, again, I know this is such a huge, maybe unfair question, but what are you seeing in the schools, whether it's the pressure that the students are seeing or what's kind of the pulse with with whether it's the teachers or the students or families? All right. Anything that kind of jumps that your hits you in the gut of like this?

*Dr. Jones * Yeah, there's there's a couple of things. And that's that's not an unfair question at all, because I've got a couple of things that aggravate me and a couple of things I look forward to. One of the things that that's really, really a stick in the mud for me is people saying, man, I can't wait till we get back to normal after Covid without realizing that the reason they're unhappy, the reason they're living in negativity is because the longer they yearn for what used to be without accepting that we are now in the new normal, they're more miserable. And it's going to be more difficult for them to exist in the current day

*Ross * while they're wishing for yesterday. So it's that let live in the past mentality, you know, and people are tired of probably this phrase that you stitch on a pillow,

*Dr. Jones * but like plant or grow where you're planted. Right, right. And I, you know, hey, look, education, trying to change education is like trying to turn an oil tanker in the ocean. And what happened was a big old giant wave by the name of Covid came up and smacked that oil tanker right in the side and turned it. And we could sit and talk about how awful it was because it was. There was a lot of awful to it. Or we could say, OK, that happened. It's awful. But look at what it revealed about our educational system. Look at what it made us try. And the only reason we ever tried this is because we had to and we were forced to. And guess what? We found out we're more resilient than we like to say we are. There's some silver linings, for sure. Absolutely. So now my whole thing is we need to take that change and we need to run with it. So that there's that piece, right? The other piece to it is people always talking about the learning deficits because they're focused on the tests, not talking about where students made gains in resilience, in the idea of autonomy. And so now students are coming back with that new form of resilience, that new sense of autonomy, where they didn't have the system of schooling and they're clashing with that. So that's causing a problem between compliance, which has always been something we argue about in education and what we're trying to do in schools because schools are trying to revert back to the old way. And so that's the clash we're seeing now. These kids, they just aren't engaged. These kids, they just don't care. They're apathetic. They mouth off. They don't listen.

*Ross * That's what you're saying. That's what you're seeing. Yep. Yep.

*Dr. Jones * And so, you know, as we get back into school and you notice that the students are starting to come around a little more. But the schools and communities and environments where you see it come around more is the ones that are sticking to a different way of educating students and adjusting their instructional practices.

*Ross * Are you on that? Is there a book that you're currently reading or one that you has really been a game changer for you other than your book? Man, I was going to promote myself.

*Dr. Jones * No, I know. I, you know, one that if I harken back to it, the Infinite Game by Sinek is good. If I look and apply it with that lens of looking forward. But there are so many, you know, if you talk about leadership and this is leadership at every level. So I would suggest teachers read this. School leaders read this. And, you know, that's that's just that's a really good book as well. OK, but I read I read a ton of books. OK, I'm making notes. You know, I just want to ask, especially those in the world of education, you know, since I'm in that world, too, like what?

*Ross * Yeah, just what tapped into you and maybe helped you focus a little bit right now. I'm I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. Just a little bit right now. And I obviously will be anticipating reading yours for sure, but one that I keep on coming back to is the most likely to succeed. Yeah, by Denturesmith. Yep. Denturesmith and Wagner. So just, you know, because even because I do teach outdoor ed at my school, so I'm always trying to think, what can I do that's going to capture their hearts? What's going to be interesting for them? Because you just alluded to that so many are now are just bored. This doesn't you teach it to the test, you're teaching, you know, it's just they're just not engaged overall. But no, I appreciate you sharing that. And I keep on saying this last question, but what got you? Because also your dad was in the Marines, you know, completely different. But why did you go? What was it for you that went into it?

*Dr. Jones * Why did you go into education? You know, do you have another hour? We'll make one. Yeah, no, you know, I wasn't going to go into education. And I did not have a good high school experience with education. And I had a chip on my shoulder about it that I need to get over. And I thought it's funny, I talk about this in the book a little bit and how I got to the idea of seeing to lead. And I was giving I was into history. So I was always talking politics or history. And I would give family members and friends tours at Civil War battlefield sites. And they'd always say, Chris, why are you why aren't you teaching history? Like we could sit and listen to you talk about history, this, that, the other thing. And I remember my mother, I was my mother kept giving me the hardest time about this. And I told her, I said, hey, look, mom. I said, I went to school, I know what school is like. I'll teach anybody anything if they want to learn it. But if you think I'm going to sit there and do discipline 80% of the time, and then try and teach the other 20% of the time, not not for me, I can't handle that. No, not at all. And I still remember the first phone call I gave her after I got my first teaching job, because finally I said, okay, I'll give it a run. Which was it's an event that happened at as I was giving my sister a tour on the battlefield at Gettysburg. But I, I do all the stuff I need to do. I land my first job and I call my mother. I say, Hey, ma, I got a teaching job. And she's like, that's great. Where are you teaching? I said, at an alternative high school. So wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. The line is quiet for a while. She goes, really? And I said, yeah. And I'll tell you what, Ross, I taught those kids at the alternative high school. Form some good relationships with them. And then I went and taught in another inner city in Massachusetts and never looked back. I just, I just absolutely loved it because I, I, I always, I sat in high school saying this is, there's gotta be a better way. There's like, there's gotta be something different. I was so bored in high school. I just did what I needed to do to, to get through so I could go play some football and go wrestle. Yeah. That's, that's all I did. I mean, I, I chose the college I went to based on who paid me the most money to play football for them before I ended up transferring to Bridgewater, Bridgewater state. But so,

*Ross * yeah. No, and I feel like so many that I, at least you and I are basically the same age, you know, that so many people that are in education, I love asking that question, especially to with my school, when we, when we onboard new teachers, why, you know, so many are trying to correct the wrong or so many came from really crappy situations and they're just like, like you, I just want to make it better. I want to, you know, now that I'm in education, I was like, I wish what? I didn't have this when I was growing up and, you know, I fought education. I didn't want to do it. Be careful what you pray for. But, you know, and then, but yeah, I mean, again, this isn't a slam to my parents. They did the best they could, you know, and grew up in New Orleans public school. Let me just, sorry. It's just a whole mess down there. And so you just kind of go to private schools or you go to Catholic schools or whatever. And, you know, in my private school, wasn't anything really right home about, I mean, didn't have any kind of fine arts, your basic sports band, but nothing like anyway, point being is I was like, ah, it was horrible. But, but yes. So, so many people I feel like are just have been called back into it or to do it, to try to make a difference. And so it sounds like a little bit maybe of you. 100%. Yeah.

*Dr. Jones * There's a really powerful phrase that sometimes people say what they don't mean. And you can, you can tell when somebody means it or not. But I, when I first said this phrase, I didn't really mean it. I said it because it sounded cool, you know. But it wasn't until I really started learning this phrase. And I think it's tied to being a dad because I think it's, it's tied to having kids. And it's the phrase that I don't want to have a teacher in my building that I would not feel comfortable putting my own child in front of. And to this day, ever since I started living that to this day, my first question in every interview is thanks for coming in. Please take three minutes to convince me that I would want to put my child in front of you in a classroom. And once you live that, you really start looking at how to improve classrooms and schools and the educational experience for everyone. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

*Ross * Yeah. Well, that's what you've made a kind of a personal mission calling. And, you know, obviously I know your students and your, your faculty are so much better for it. And, you know, Doc, just what you shared tonight, it's been truly an honor to get to, to meet you and to hear your story and what a blessing you are to your two young men and to all that seemed like to just interact with you. And so it's guys like you that are really like kind of the modern day heroes out there. So I can't thank you enough. Thank you. That's a great question.

*Dr. Jones * Thank you. That means a ton coming from you, Ross. I really appreciate that. I could talk to you forever. Thanks.

*Ross * Well, maybe, well, maybe at some point our paths will cross at a conference or something and we can share a beverage together or a meal together. And of course, you know, my always an open door down here in Houston to come down if you're ever through this swamp and to grab some, grab some barbecue. I do. Now you're talking my language. Well, come on down. But I do want the again, these links will be in the show notes, but I know your website is Dr. C. D. R. C. S. Jones dot blog for your blog. Your Twitter handle is seek. Owen K. A. P. underscore Jones.

*Dr. Jones * Nope, that one's that one's an old one. That hasn't been active in a while. Sorry, which what's where's the Twitter? It's at Dr. C. S. Jones. So D. R. C. S. Jones. Perfect. And that is pretty much across social media. You can catch me at that.

*Ross * Any other places that the audience can find you, I'll see your book or

*Dr. Jones * that you need to promote or to just so they can know about you. Yeah, they can. I mean, well, there's the book that you can get at Seen to lead dot com or on Amazon. Okay. But I'm pretty much Dr. C. S. Jones everywhere across social media. If they want to email me, I'm Dr. Chris S. J. at Gmail. Okay. And YouTube, I think if you if you search me, you find me, but I'm not I'm not too sure exactly

*Ross * what YouTube is. I think it's Christopher S. J. Well, I'll I'll find you on YouTube and I'll put that link in the in the show notes. Are you still team Jones dot com? Yep. Perfect. Perfect. So just anybody out there, please, especially in the world of education, please find Dr. Jones, follow him follows blog. I know I'll be reading your book soon. But also to just about parenting and just the lessons that I've learned in our conversation tonight. Truck drives and being honest and some of the things that you're doing with your boys. It's just phenomenal, man, and how you've taken your scars of growing up and you're using those scars and being vulnerable with that, but that those scars will be will bring blessings and healing to your family and how you are kind of changing the trajectory of your degenerations that go after you. And so you're leaving an incredible legacy. I've seen your two young men and blessings to them on some of the next chapters, especially driving in their lives. And I hope that your last remaining days of this summer are somewhat

*Dr. Jones * meaningful and restful before you get back into your in service and get back at it. Yeah. Well, thank you very much. I really appreciate the kind words. And, you know, I wish you all the best. You're at the beginning of the journey, man. Enjoy it for all it's worth. I you know, the interesting thing is it's funny. It made me think when you said the team Jones piece, we call ourselves that. So like when we were posting on Facebook, it was, you know, day 18 of the team Jones summer of twenty three road trip. But there's so much more to that, meaning sometimes we'll be sitting in a car, the four of us, and we'll just break out chanting team Jones. I love it. One of the things that I find helpful is if and if I could give advice to anybody in a family, really instill instill that team feeling that idea that everybody's valuable, they're a valuable member of the team and everybody's got a role to play. So sometimes like I tell my boys, you got to eat your vegetables to get to where you want to go. Yep. But I find that with that mentality, it's something that we can refer back to to. Hey, look, team Jones sticks up for each other. Hey, we don't treat people on team Jones like that. Team Jones is honest. We always go back to that. And yeah, you got to move along. You got to do chores to make sure that we can do these

*Ross * other things, because as a team, we succeed and we get more done. So I think it's a great way to end Doc, because it is and we all have a part to play. Right. In our school or with our kids, when we take our kids camping, we all have a part to play. And if I can get somewhat biblical, we're one body, but we all have different parts, the ear, the nose, there's not one that's less important. We all have a part to play in that. And so the fact that team Jones is, you know what, the dishes got to they can't clean themselves. But this is how we operate as a team. Right. And so I think that's perfect. So it's it's it's also just know that you got a fan of team Jones down here at Houston. And so we're thankful for you. We're thankful for who you are. And as a as a father, as a husband, but also to as a as a principal. So thank you. Thank you, Ross. I appreciate it. Absolutely. All right. Well, keep keep let's keep in contact. OK, perfect. I'd love to. Awesome. All right, Doc. Have a great night. You as well. OK. All right.